Talk:Kato Svanidze

Votes for deletion

This page was recently nominated for deletion, and the consensus decision was to keep it. The deletion debate is archived here. ugen64 03:49, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

this page is totally incorrect, including the claimings of Stalin's Ossetian ethnic backgrounds...

In Montefiore's Young Stalin, it is asserted that he was of Ossetian background (on the Djugashvili side, not the Geladze) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andres68 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Sgtwookie 22:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)I made necessary grammatical changes however I haven't yet verified the validity of the document. ~§gt Щookie~

Family Killed?

Why was her family killeD? 69.181.220.209 (talk) 22:44, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Why? LOL. Why did Stalin murder millions of people? There's no rhyme or reason to it, just that he was a paranoid motherfucker, and the Russians enjoy being abused.

Cause of death

The article first says she died of typhus, then that she died of tuberculosis. Presumably it is one or the other, but not both.

24.255.155.226 (talk) 09:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Well her death wasn't caused by typhus either. You don't get typhus from contaminated drinking water but you do get TYPHOID FEVER instead. So the sentence, "On the 13-hour trip back to Tiflis, she apparently drank infected water and contracted typhus" is completely incorrect. Typhus is caused by Rickettsia prowazekii through the feces of the human body louse. Typhoid fever is caused by Salmonella typhi through drinking water contaminated with human feces and can also cause a rash. By the descriptions given and the fact that human body lice infest clothing that hasn't been changed for a very long time, usually under extremely bad living conditions (like the gulags Stalin threw millions of people into and other concentration camps), you need to correct this b/c it looks uninformed and completely stupid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.93.133 (talk) 05:20, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

about everything

montefiores book not biographical source, stallin not was ossetian of course, jugashvili is old kakhetian surname from village jugaani, i have many other georgian sources about stallin, in this source not written about stallins ossetian origin, I will delete everithing about ossetian origination of stalin.--Gaga.vaa (talk) 17:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Montefiore is a reliable source until you prove otherwise, and there's nothing in the article about Ossetian roots. I've undone your changes because there is no dispute over the spelling of her name - Ketevan is the name, and it's a well-known Georgian name that has nothing to do with Ossetia. —Мандичка^YO 😜 02:42, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kato Svanidze/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 15:18, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi! Will review this. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 15:18, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Added all my comments: Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 07:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Lead

• As per WP:MOSLEAD too many pronunciations should not be kept in the lead. Keep just one, others can go to the infobox.
• Can the lead be expanded so that it covers all parts of the article?

Early life

• Don't make too many paras, it appears choppy. Please combine parts.
• "Rachelian." "Rachelian".

Early life in Tiflis

• Source for the first and second paras?
• This section is also bitty.

Marriage to Stalin

• Appears choppy.
• Stalin (known as "Soso" to his Georgian friends) and Kato were very much in love. Why is this included here? Seems unnecessary.
• Stalin later told his youngest child, daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva Would be good to mention that she came from his second marriage.
• A few months later authorities made the connection; an Okhrana raid on a Bolshevik residence in Moscow revealed a paper with their address on Freylinskaya Street and the message, "seamstress Svanidze, ask for Soso." Source?

Illness and death

• and wrote her and Stalin Should it not be "wrote to"?

She didn't die of typhus. She died of typhoid fever. Typhus is caused by Rickettsia prowazekii which is in the feces of the human body louse. The insect is crushed into the wound it makes with its bite and the victim is inoculated that way. Typhoid fever is caused by Salmonella typhi and is transmitted by drinking water or eating food contaminated with human feces. This sentence looks like it was written by someone who has absolutely NO IDEA what they're talking about and as such should be changed. Otherwise it just sounds ignorant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1012:A023:5555:C13D:C6C7:F594:AF59 (talk) 04:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Family

• Duplink: Svetlana Alliluyeva
• You should clearly state that Maria Anisimovna Korona is Mariko.
• Soviet law required the divorce decree to printed in the newspaper along with their home addresses "to be printed". By the way, I don't see why this part needs to be included.
• Source for the 3rd para?

This should be all. These addressed, I would be happy to promote this. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 07:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: You there? Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 13:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Sainsf: thanks for your time on this. I will work on improvements! Thank you so much! —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:25, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: You there? If there is no response by 12th this month (a week since the last response) I will have to fail this nomination. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 13:27, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Sainsf: Yes, I'm so sorry, I have not had a chance to get to this. I will do it tonight! Thank you for the reminder and your help with my first GA!!! —Мандичка^YO 😜 14:51, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Thanks. You have done really well in your first GA, I could notice only a handful of issues! Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 14:56, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikimandia and Sainsf, with no edits to this page in 9 days, and none to the article since before the review began, where does this stand? Display name 99 (talk) 22:00, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikimandia:, @Display name 99: I have been busy elsewhere. I am afraid this review can not wait anymore. I must fail this after all the delay. I would like to set it renominated after the above issues have been fixed. I would request the nominator to be faster in their response, the review can not remain open for long without any activity. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 04:18, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Translation disagreements??

Rather than rewriting the second note at the end of the Kato Svanidze article, (below), I am making a comment:

b Simon Sebag Montefiore misspells the name as "Monoselidze" throughout his book; the actual name is Monaselidze (Georgian: მონასელიძე, a somewhat common Georgian surname.[31]

When the actual name is "მონასელიძე" are not the two Engllsh spellings more a disagreement of how best to spell something using a different alphabet? Would it not be more accurate to state: [Simon Sebag Montefiore spells the name "Monoselidze" throughout his book; the preferred transliteration is "Monaselidze", (a somewhat common Georgian surname).]

GeeBee60 (talk) 23:38, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kato Svanidze/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Canada Hky (talk · contribs) 14:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello! I am happy to take a look and review this article for Good Article status. I typically go through and make initial comments as a I read, and then after these have been worked through, make a review against the templated criteria. Canada Hky (talk) 14:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Initial notes

This was a really interesting article to read - thank you! It is quite well-written, and I don't think it will require too much work to get to GA. A few notes:

• There is some inconsistency with the name usage, which is to be expected through transliteration and differences between alphabets. I think it could be a bit more clear, particularly in the body of the article. Stalin's previous name is identified in the lead of the article, but only noted through the wikilink in the body of the article. A parenthetical notation or footnote in the body would make this more explicit. Similarly for their son - he is Yakov in the lead and infobox, and Iakob in the later text of the article.

Added another note about Stalin's different names on the first mention of him in the article, and changed Yakov's name in the infobox. If you think it should further be modified let me know.

I think things are much clearer now, thank you!

• In the first sentence of the Svandize family section - is the Ketevan vs Ekaterine consistently utilized? Should the footnote identify 'Ketevan' as the alternate name, given that 'Ekaterine' is used in the first sentence of the lead?

Changed to use 'Ekaterine' throughout. I will note that the name 'Ketevan' is a common Georgian name, but sources do note her name was 'Ekaterine', which is decidedly less common.

• "At the time she was nearly pregnant, and while it is not known if she was aware of this, historian Stephen Kotkin has suggested this was the impetus for the wedding." - Should this be "newly pregnant"?

Yes, definitely. Changed.

• "The three sisters took up working at atelier for a French seamstress" - I am not 100% confident in my grammar here - should this be "an atelier"?

Correct, fixed.

• "Monaselidze eventually found a priest willing to perform the service, Kita Tkhinvaleli, who had also been a classmate of Jughashvili at the Seminary, though Tkinvaleli only agreed to do it if they held the wedding late at night" - some inconsistent spelling between the priests name (I am not sure which is correct), and also this could be split up into a few sentences for clarity.

The name should read 'Tkhinvaleli', and is fixed. Also broke it into two sentences to make an easier read.

• "During the burial he also reportedly threw himself into her grave, and had to be dragged out; trailed by Okhrana agents Jughashvili would flee before the service ended." - this could be split up into a couple sentences.

Done

• For clarity - in the 'Aftermath' section, could the second paragraph reorient to the fact that these are Kato's siblings?

Done

These are my early thoughts, I don't think there are any major hurdles here. The sources look good, and the formatting all looks correct. The photos are appropriate and correctly tagged, so just some tweaking of the prose, and I think we are on the path. Canada Hky (talk) 14:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Addressed everything here, but if you have anything else please let me know. And thanks for looking it over, glad you enjoyed it. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I do appreciate your efforts, and found the article much clearer with the changes to the names. I did not have access to the books, but with some library ad google books sources, I was able to cross check enough of the information that it seems factual and accurately represented. Canada Hky (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   I was unable to check the full text of all books cited for plagiarism, so I assumed good faith there, and the facts checked out through several news articles and other sources I could find.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   No issues with the images.

7. Overall: Thanks for the edits, and the opportunity to review this article.

   Pass/Fail:

Maria Svanidze death

I've seen several wiki articles claim that she was shot, however Svetlana Alliluyeva, Stalin's daughter, says Maria died of a heart attack upon learning of the sentencing of Alexander Svanidze. She was in Dolinskoye women's camp in Kazakhstan at that moment, sentenced to ten years. This is from Twenty Letters to a Friend, pp 67-68. Should this be fixed or not? MrThe1And0nly (talk) 20:34, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@MrThe1And0nly: I actually was looking into this. There's a few different sources that say different things; I'm working on collecting them all and adding them to the article, noting that there is discrepancies. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:30, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Photo of Ekaterina c. 1905

I believe that the photo of Kato Svanidze that's said to be taken in 1905 is actually a photo of the soviet actress Anna Tarasova in the role of Anna Karenina. I'm not quite sure how I upload photos here or if I can, but I hope someone else can quickly have a look at this and see if I'm right or wrong. (Her memoirs and postcards carries the photo that's called Kato's here) APebble (talk) 08:21, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

@APebble: Thanks for noting that. Do you have something showing that? If you do I don't see why we can't remove the image in question here. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes there's quite a few photos showing this. I have to apologies, the actress name is actually Alla Tarasova, and she played the role at the Moscow Art Theater in 1937. Try googling her name in Russian with ''Anna Karenina'' or ''1937'' and you'll see the very same photo used here, as Kato's, from trustable sites showing it's Tarasova :) I apologise that I can't be of bigger help with actually showing the photos, but I've just joined wikipedia and don't want to make any mistakes with photos and fair use. APebble (talk) 17:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your help there. I removed the photo as it very well may not be Svandize, and with photos already there it's not hurting the article by having it gone. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for taking your time and looking it over! APebble (talk) 10:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Is Alexander also Alyosha?

I am confused by this passage: « In 1938, Stalin ordered Alyosha and his wife, Maria, to be arrested. He demanded that Alyosha admit he was a German spy; but Alexander refused.[32] Alyosha was executed in 1941, while Mariko and Maria were shot in 1942. »

Are Alexander and Alyosha the same person? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 05:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

They are the same person, though I see where the confusion is. I reworded it to be more clearer. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:59, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I thought that was the case, but don't know enough about Russian names to make a correction. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 18:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)